Debate: This House believes Islam is a religion of peace

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Ayes: 286

Noes: 168

handley debateIn a timely debate, held just 24 hours after the religiously motivated incident in Woolwich, the Union considered the question of the nature of Islam.

Proposition speaker Matthew Handley started the debate by grounding it in recent events, deploring the previous day’s “reprehensible act in Woolwich”, a sentiment that he was sure would be shared by Muslims around the world.

Handley continued by separating the religion of Islam from the individuals who “violently hijack faith for violent and maniacal ends” and maintained that the Qur’an has an “overwhelmingly peaceful character.”

In the light of the “decade long surge of violence and aggression” against Islam since 9/11, he summarised the debate as a choice between “love and hate and rejection, peace and conflict” and concluded: “I hope you make the right choice.”

Speaker Anne-Marie Waters, council member of the National Secular Society, began the case for the opposition by denying that she and her fellow opposition speakers cause fear of Islam and blamed instead “the actions of Islam itself”.

She listed “9/11, 7/7, Mali, Somalia, gender discrimination, forced marriages, polygamy, amputation”, and many more. To the opposition’s claim that these acts belong to an “extreme fringe” which has misunderstood the words of the Qur’an, she described the executions for blasphemy and apostasy in Saudi Arabia, and asked “has there ever been a more spectacular misunderstanding?”

Waters concluded by arguing  that it is the moderate Muslims who must “dance around meanings” and “stretch interpretations” when confronted with the fundamentally violent ideology of the Qur’an.

Adam Deen, a prominent Muslim intellectual and founder and director of the Deen Institute, countered this by arguing that “if we approach Islamic teaching fairly and objectively, there is a golden thread that runs through whole Qur’an,” an ideal of “justice” and “positive peace”.

He argued that in fact the whole of Islam is compatible with “just war theory”, in which “the virtue of avoiding violence is superseded by the virtue of justice.” He then quoted from the Qur’an which states: “Fight in God’s cause but do not overstep the limits. God does not love those who overstep the limits.”

Daniel Johnston, journalist and editor of what he called the “not very right-wing” magazine Standpoint, called Islam “the most direct threat to Western civilization in the world today”.

Johnston deplored the lack of “freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, equal rights, and separation between church and state” in Islamic countries, emphasizing that “all these ideals emerged in the West.”

Johnston claimed that a university like Oxford, with its tradition of free academic inquiry, could not exist under the conditions of an Islamic state and that “there is no university in this sense in the Islamic world”.

Muslim journalist Mehdi Hasan, political editor of the Huffington Post, warned Anne-Marie Waters that her “astonishing claims” might endanger her future as a Labour Party candidate, but assured her “don’t worry, the BNP will take you”.

Hasan asked why, if Islam is “responsible for killing,” such a tiny percentage of believers actually participate in violence. He asked the audience if they really believe that 1.6 billion people are all “followers, promoters and believers in a religion of violence”.

Hasan urged them not to “fuel the arguments of the phobes and bigots and legitimise hate”, but to “trust the Muslims that you know and that you hear.”

Opposition speaker Peter Atkins, former Professor of Chemistry at Oxford, concluded the debate by describing Islam along with all other religions as a “supermarket of ideas and instructions” from which good and bad men can select what they want “according to their taste.”

However, he claimed that Islam “does in practice inspire more violence than the other Abrahamic religions”.

Taking on Adam Deen’s metaphor of a ‘golden thread’, he argued that “the opposite of peace is woven into the fabric of the Qur’an.”

Atkins declared that “all the seas incarnadine cannot wash the blood from a religion’s hands”, because “when evils destroy a human life, as they did yesterday, that life cannot be restored”.  He called on the audience to oppose the motion “for the sake of humanity.”

245 thoughts on “Debate: This House believes Islam is a religion of peace

  1. “Ayes: 286; Noes: 168”

    I can’t help wondering how many who VOTED in favour of this motion (“Islam is a religion of peace”) wholeheartedly BELIEVE it: and how many voted FOR it because they lacked the courage to vote AGAINST.

  2. In my view the scripture of the two main monotheistic religions has aided the spread of these religions in no small part because scripture is ambiguous and self contradictory. This means that it can be interpreted to mean all things to all men. There’s something in it for everybody. Islam is neither a religion of peace nor one of war. Probably by more luck than judgement it can be interpreted to be anything you particularly want.

  3. IF Islam and it’s followers truly believe in peace then why do they not condemn publicly the extremists who advocate violence to those who are not of their faith?

  4. This is what Ayatollah Khomeini – whose knowledge of the Quran would be difficult to dispute – had to say: “Those who follow the rules of the Koran are aware that we have to obey the laws of qissas (retribution) and that we have to kill… War is a blessing for the world and for every nation. It is Allah himself who commands men to wage war and kill.”
    Evidently those who voted for the resolution know better.

  5. Islam is a religion of peace and this is irrefutable because through the Quran it is also defined as a religion of peace, with proof and intellectual rigour; and should anyone want to refute this then the Quran itself lays down an open challenge to anyone to disprove that the Quran is the word of God. This challenge has remained open for the past 1400+ years. Any takers?

  6. Arthur Koestler was so right when he said: “The true believer moves in a vicious circle inside his closed system; he can prove to his satisfaction everything that he believes, and believes everything he can prove”. The true believer naturally holds that his beliefs are “irrefutable”. There is no cure for this condition.

  7. Perhaps Arthur Koestler was a little too pessimistic. Some individuals living in a cosy world of circular arguments do eventually recover.

  8. “There is no cure for this condition”. Was not part of the Koestler quote. And the world of the ‘true believer’ is far from cosy. For him those who are of another faith are by definition on the wrong path and have to be corrected. It is a grim responsibility.

  9. @Vir Narain
    I apologise to Mr Koestler. Then I guess it is you who is too pessimistic. And I would still contend that true believers live in a cosy internal world of circular logic. This world is largely insulated from reality even though their perceived responsibilities within the real world are problematic. This must be so otherwise you would be unable to be so pessimistic and would be arguing against yourself.

  10. @AK
    Yes Mehdi Hasan has an effective debating style which seems to have won him the debate. However he was arguing a false dichotomy here. He argues that Islam is not a religion of war but that does not necessarily mean it is a religion of peace. As I pointed out earlier, to those so inclined there is enough ambiguity and self contradictory text within Islam for the individual to interpret it any way that suits his/her agenda.

  11. @ GordonHide.
    Does not “This must be so otherwise you would be unable to be so pessimistic and would be arguing against yourself.” sound too cosy?
    I could be wrong, but this seems to be a non sequitur. Am I missing something?

  12. Bigots were not only in the debate they are here too, making preposterous claims of who said what, without any sources. Khomeini wasn’t a well known scholar for all Muslims 1st of all if he would have iraq-iran wars wouldn’t have happened. People are really cherry picking phobes and bigots.

  13. @Vir Narain — OK I’ll have another go. If the believers world were as uncomfortable as you contend then they would be open to outside influence. Then you would have no need for your pessimism. But they are largely insulated from outside influence in their cosy world so your pessimism may well be justified.

    You contend that their cosiness is denied because of their perceived responsibilities in the real world but your pessimism denies that such real world interactions have any effect on their own beliefs. That is you thus imply they are cosily insulated from influence.

  14. @GordonHide

    There are really no ambiguities or contradiction when the promoters of violence in the Scripture does not even read & understand the whole Qur’an. It is like picking out certain words from a sentence : “Therefore one must endeavour towards peace even if it means putting an end to life of the serial killer” and instead just reading “one must endeavour to put an end to his life”. Extrapolate these individual words to verses in the context of the whole Quran and you’ll get my meaning. In fact it will be near impossible to find a verse in the Quran that says “Kill the oppressors” in one verse and “Except those who desire peace” in the very next verse.

  15. Islam is truly and undoubtedly the Religion of Peace. There’s no denying this fact. Those who act violently and blast bombs here and there are not Muslims at all. They don’t have any religion and have been trying to stray the people from the right path. They are all drugged and brain-washed. Islam has always asked for peace. If any of you people don’t believe it why don’t you just read about the Quraan, everything is clearly mentioned in it.

  16. It’s pretty pointless that a vote decides if a complete way of life is peaceful or not rather than just studying the plain facts about it.

  17. I don’t believe that those who do blasts have any religion..The basic problem with Us (Muslims) is that most of us don’t study Islam the way we should..now a days Muslims are taught Quran but most of us don’t know the meaning of it..so whenever anyone tells us that QURAN says this in the current matter,we just follow them..since we don’t know the real teachings of ISLAM we don’t know what to do in any matter so i suggest that we should learn QURAN along with the translation and then follow what it says..And for MUSLIMS being terrorist i would like to say that there are blasts in Muslim countries mostly…there is hardly a blast in non-Muslim countries.if these people are Muslims then why do they kill Muslims mostly??
    I’d like to know the answer of this question…

  18. ” Islam ” if any body want to know about islam plz study it, Quran is their available in all languages plz study it u will know every thing. I think this debate was totally wrong bcz they joined a religiaon with terrorism so we have to separate these things first. ok plz can any body define what is Terrorism is ?

  19. Islam is a peaceful religion and if one practice according to the commandments of God and the way prophet Mohammad,peace be upon him,showed and practice in his 63 years of life.Would be successful in this life and hereafter.

  20. I don’t believe that those who do blasts have any religion..The basic problem with Us (Muslims) is that most of us don’t study Islam the way we should..now a days Muslims are taught Quran but most of us don’t know the meaning of it..so whenever anyone tells us that QURAN says this in the current matter,we just follow them..since we don’t know the real teachings of ISLAM we don’t know what to do in any matter so i suggest that we should learn QURAN along with the translation and then follow what it says..And for MUSLIMS being terrorist i would like to say that there are blasts in Muslim countries mostly…there is hardly a blast in non-Muslim countries.if these people are Muslims then why do they kill Muslims mostly??
    I’d like to know the answer of this question…

  21. we must not only read quran but we need to more understand it .all over the world most of the people only study quran and read it but we need to understand what HE has told us in His verses

  22. Islam is an arabic word mean peace. Peace with almighty and peace with all created. This is a religion of Ibrahim. Islam has no conflict with those who are on right path and this is where a bad is bad. Bad is one who work against the good of the society no matter what religion they proclaim to be. This point needs to be understood, rest is clear.

  23. Fazal Karim is 100% correct in describing Islam in so few words.
    The people who are killing and causing so much destruction to mostly Muslims cannot be Muslims.In fact I don’t think they have any religion.They are not even animals.I think they are the followers
    of the Devil..I very strongly believe this.No human being can cause so much harm,pain and destruction.Thousands and thousands of
    homes in the Muslim world have lost their only earning members in the family.How can any Muslim destroy another Muslim or one human being destroy another human being.?They can only be the followers of the Devil.

  24. I love Islam because it made me learnt the way of living with people and for people, affection, trust, peace, cleanliness, light to right path and infinite things…..you just name it and its there in Quran-e-Pak. Alhumdulillah Quran-e-Pak tells the whole story right from the birth of child till death. Most significant, Quran-e-Pak mentions other religious books as well…..
    As far as extremism is concerned, definitely there are some commercial gimmicks being played down the ground by few authoritarians and those we all know somewhere in our hearts….

  25. 9:29
    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”
    Now, since i took the verse completely out of the context, i hope someone will be able to put it back into the context.
    Thanks in advance

  26. I find ppl SO stupid whn they say tht it’s the religion. In school whn i read abt Hitler, i didn’t think “OH all german ppl are like tht”. When i read abt British ppl taking over India, i didn’t think ALL white ppl are ike tht. Then why are ppl like tht whn it comes to Islam.
    When evr HATERS quote from from QURAN, then why not read tht part through instead of tht bit of part??
    I don’t evn feel angry or sad whn i listen to ppl who are against them, but i do feel bad for them, very bad, i cannot explain how bad coz on the Day of Judgment not only will they regret, but by that time they wont be able to go back in time and fix their mistakes.
    And whn evr ppl mention Polygamy, im sorry to say this wht abt those ppl who make love wthout getting married??
    The problem is these days tht muslims are using polygamy very wrongly, coz if they can’t treat more than 1 woman equally then he is NOT allowed to get married.
    I have seen ppl hate muslims, but as soon as they got to learn few muslims, they said “well we just believe in wht the media says”.

    Also I wanna say thanks for this debate, coz these kinda debates are the ones tht make non-muslims curious abt Islam which is the reason why Islam is the FASTEST growing religious.

    Last but not the least, a muslim cannot hurt an innocent person so there is no chance tht those who are causing these problems are follower of Islam. And a muslim can be wrong, but the religion itself is NOT WRONG and IS A RELIGION OF PEACE.

  27. Islam is a religion of peace to the extent that apart from human rights, it also guides how to treat even animals. As a religion it demonstrates that in a state where people from different religions are living together, no one is allowed to behave or treat negatively in un-human manner any one based on religion. If a few people are translating the religion of Islam for their own political agenda, this does not mean that they are representing the entire religion of Islam. Life of Prophet (SAW) is a good symbol of this claim. Anyone who is deviating from the teaching and practices adopted by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) does not belong to religion of Islam

  28. So, Islam is a religion of peace, no matter what was written in the Quran?
    How “christians and jews are the worst of creatures” 8:55 & 98:6, corresponds with that?
    How “fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah”-8:39 corresponds with that?
    How the ban on non-muslims to enter Mecca corresponds with that?
    How the ban on non-muslims to be “protectors/helpers” to Muslims corresponds with that?
    How the ban on non-muslims to marry Muslim women corresponds with that?
    How Muslim expansionist wars from Medina to Mecca, Mesopotamia, Persia, India, Egypt, N.Africa, Balkans and Spain corresponds with that?
    How death for apostasy corresponds with that?
    How… there anyway will be no answers.

  29. @ Yaqoob Shah — All through history it has been a tactic of politicians and generals to try and instil fear into their enemies. It’s a very cheap way of gaining victories without having to fight. The tactic is more or less ubiquitous so the “terrorist” is ill named from that point of view.
    Also through history whenever a much weaker force has endeavoured to fight an overwhelmingly stronger one the weaker force has been reduced to raiding and guerilla attacks on undefended or poorly defended targets. The object here is to make the job of defending such targets so expensive that the stronger power will seek a non military solution. In the past societies like the Romans massacred or enslaved entire populations in order to combat this type of warfare. Another tactic was to take large numbers of hostages whose lives were forfeit if attacks continued. Such tactics are not open to most governments today so the raider/guerilla has become that much more effective. Additionally the destructive power of modern infantry weapons and explosives has made raider/guerilla tactics much more effective. A terrorist, in modern terms, is someone who fights using the traditional tactics of the weaker opponent but whose methods or goals are those of which you don’t approve.

  30. @ Aledrus — If there are no ambiguities or contradictions, (with itself and the more useful model of reality revealed by the scientific method), why are there so many different Islamic sects? Adherents of religions have always cherry picked their way through scripture in order to find justification for the way they want to behave and the Quran appears as good as any scripture for that purpose.

  31. @Muhammad Shaoor Khan — “Islam is truly and undoubtedly the Religion of Peace. There’s no denying this fact. Those who act violently and blast bombs here and there are not Muslims at all.”

    This is an example of the “no true Scotsman fallacy”. Basically if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and lays eggs then it probable is a duck. The Islamic terrorist behaves like a Muslim in every respect except those behaviours of which you don’t approve.
    Of course the Islamic terrorist thinks that you are not a true Muslim because you have rejected Quranic instructions to defend Islam. So I guess you are only returning the complement.

    I have to say that to an outsider, your narrow view of what is truly Islamic is only better than that of the terrorist because your view has less evil impact on the world. From the point of view of the outsider both interpretations of Islam are equally mistaken about the probable nature of reality.

  32. @Anonymous — One of the reasons that Muslims kill other Muslims is that each of them has the view, just like you, that their particular interpretation of Islam is the only correct one. Therefore they believe, just as you do, that their enemies are not true Muslims. The fact that Muslims kill more Muslims than non-Muslims may just be a matter of geographical convenience. To the killers their enemies are not real Muslims and are conveniently close.

  33. We Muslims don’t say that Jew’s and Christian’s are worst because we believe wholeheartedly they are also followers of great prophet’s ..

    Every Verse of Qur’an has great context not every person can simply read and understand it. So you cannot simply blame Muslim’s on the bases of verses of Jihad that came into Qur’an without knowing their context.

    Every Religion defines some boundaries around their people. If Islam also put some boundaries around their believers that they cannot marry non Muslims, then no one can question it. Because this is religious views that is written in other world and the authority who has written these is so big and that is Allah Almighty. We cannot question Him that why He defines such rules for Muslims.

    We Muslims are peaceful people and we always desire that there will complete peace around the whole globe.We are the people with motto ” GEO AND JEENEY DO “.

  34. @Yaqoob Shah — Your intimation that general ignorance of the Quran is the problem just does not hold water. Are we to believe that Osama Bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini did not study the Quran? Your inability to accept that the Quran has different interpretations and that none is any more valid than the other is, in fact, the source of the problem of which you complain.

  35. @Gul Rose — Oh Dear. It’s sad that you cannot see that your common belief that the Quran is the work of Allah and is not open to various interpretation none of which is more valid than the others, is one of the major sources of Muslim problems.

  36. @Sajida — Your very willingness to disown those that have a different interpretation of Islam than yours shows that you are part of the problem not the solution. You will not improve society or influence those Muslims whose actions you disapprove of by denying their religious belief. Once you can accept that their belief is just as valid as yours in every particular then you can start improving the world. You must show that your way is better for the general wellbeing not that it is more valid or nearer the “truth”.

  37. @Iqra — You are another Muslim in denial about the nature of belief and who is a real Muslim. Therefore you are part of the problem rather than the solution. As long as you express your ideas, religious and otherwise, with such certainty you will never be able to reach out and influence the world for the better.

  38. Well, I have lost faith in Oxford. Looking at the theology of Islam, it is very clear that it is not a religion of peace. Looking at the actions of muslims – and all this denial saying their “not real muslims” is just that; denial – it is clear that it is not a religion of peace.

    Were it a religion of peace, then where does all this hate and violence come from? If it was truly a religion of peace, then why do they believe in “hell,” and indeed that their god FORCES our disbelief and will punish us forever?

    At the very least, and this goes for every religion out there, any religion that preaches eternal punishment (to the degree of Abrahamic religions,) for non-believers or sinners is not, and never will be, a religion of peace. Such is absolutely not a notion of peace.

  39. Bottom line, To you is your way and to me is mine. Lets respect each other and work towards a common goal ‘Live and let live’

  40. @GordonHide
    I nvr evr said i was a REAL muslim. I still don’t feel i have the right to be called tht whn i kinda just started to learn abt islam. U don’t know how I was before.
    And im not someone who try to learn others abt islam, since i don’t know much yet.
    In a young age i have seen things happen. And i’ve evn cared abt non-muslims, and from tht day i started to follow my religion properly i didn’t start to hate non-muslims i only started to feel bad for them coz of they don’t know yet, which is y i’ve started to study slowly to be able to answer them properly ONLY if they ask me a question.

    And i fully agree wth u on this part “As long as you express your ideas, religious and otherwise, with such certainty you will never be able to reach out and influence the world for the better.”
    I will try to improve.

  41. What our Religious Scholar’s failed to do has been beautifully articulated & presented by this young man. Islam is indeed a Religion of peace. The purported Taliban TTP(Pakistan) carrying out Terrorists activities in Pakistan are nothing but mercenaries hired by CIA, MOSSAD & RAW to destabilize Pakistan, an excuse to enter Pakistan to take over our NUKES just as they did in IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN.

  42. @Iqra, I am pleased that you have taken some of what I said on board. Thank you. Also I was not accusing you of claiming to be a real Muslim. I was complaining about: “a muslim cannot hurt an innocent person so there is no chance that those who are causing these problems are follower of Islam. ” This is yet another example of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. You will not address the problems within Islam by declaring that those self identified Muslims who act in a manner of which you disapprove are not followers of Islam.
    The truth of the matter is that there is no way for an outsider such as myself to judge who represents the “real Islam”. I might prefer it is you but that is only a subjective preference. There are no actual facts that point to their interpretation of Islam being wrong and yours being right. I understand this is hard to accept but I am not suggesting that you start believing that they are as good as you but I am suggesting you accept they have as much right to their self identification as you do. Although you are never likely to meet these people of whom you complain, if perchance you do, I would suggest you don’t reject them as fellow Muslims but that you address your differences with them, that you find out why they believe what they do and perhaps try to persuade them of the merits of a different view.

  43. @ Imtiaz Alam, Your view that violence within Pakistan is caused by inimical outsiders, this view expressed without reference to good evidence, just makes you look like yet another Muslim with a persecution complex. A Muslim who is seeking to relieve his fellows and his religion of the personal responsibility to grasp your own destiny and bring about positive change within Muslim lands.

  44. There is one universal saving word for all violent, utterly unambiguous, verses and passages from Quran and Hadith – “context”. That is if a debater didn’t read the scriptures (and The Context). If he/she actually did it, than another strategy comes to play – “it takes decades to understand..”
    So this convenient word “context”, magically turns all of the axiomatically violent into axiomatically peaceful – “Fight those who do not believe in Allah”.
    What are we talking here about? About dry water on a cold sun?
    Is it at all possible that this is happening in Oxford?
    No matter how unproportional number of Muslim voters were over there, the result is a fairly certain sign that our civilization is actually done (just no one has informed us yet).
    As the Hadith (Bukhari 019-4363) says: “..accept Islam (and) you will be safe.”

  45. There is one universal saving word for all violent, utterly
    unambiguous, verses and passages from Quran and Hadith – “context”. That is if a debater didn’t read the scriptures (and The Context). If he/she actually did it, than another strategy comes to play – “it takes decades to understand..”
    So this convenient word “context”, magically turns all of the axiomatically violent into axiomatically peaceful – “Fight those who do not believe in Allah”.What are we talking here about?
    Is it at all possible that this is happening in Oxford?
    No matter how unproportional number of Muslim voters were over there, the result is a fairly certain sign that our civilization is actually done (just no one has informed us yet).
    As the Hadith (Bukhari 019-4363) says: “..accept Islam (and)
    you will be safe.”

  46. @HussainFahmy
    I am not morally obligated to respect ideology that hangs
    raped women, homosexuals, apostates and adulterers.
    I’m not obligated to respect ideology that kills for poetry.
    I’m not obligated to respect ideology that prescribes gender inequality.
    I’m not obligated to respect ideology that imposes “halal” killing.
    No my friend, i am not.

  47. Why do we call people that we do not like “my friend”? If we’re going to be honest, let’s be honest.

    As anonymous above stated, we are not obligated to respect an ideology that commits such inhumane acts (not to mention stoning people to death,) nor are we obligated to respect the people who zealously believe in and uphold such views.

  48. Well TheRaginPagan, i actually am honest. Even though i totally reject his ideology, i can’t blame him, as he’s been indoctrinated from the earliest age. I find him a victim not perpetrator. I do respect him as a human being, i don’t respect the ideology.

  49. You’re right, it is best to be local. Good thing I’ve got some muslims that live three doors down. And many more that attend my school. And the countless dozen others that I’ve encountered elsewhere. Plus there’s the publicly available information of what’s in the quran.

    Islam isn’t some magically isolated thing that’s only encountered in the Middle East, you know.

  50. Hahah “indoctrinated from the earliest age”. You talk as if you yourself haven’t been indoctrinated to believe in western ideals. They got indoctrinated into you the moment you stepped out into society, and started school. The way you think sounds similar to the Ukrainian feminist group FEMEN who believe that Muslim women tolerate ‘male dominated’ oppression because that concept has been ‘internalized’ into their heads (as if they don’t have the ability to think for themselves and study their religion thoroughly, and find out for themselves why Islamic are the way they are), and tried to fight for Muslim womens’ rights by protesting topless in the streets, and actually ended up offending the majority of Muslim women. It’s actually your arrogance and ignorance that is pitiful, my friend.

    Sincerely,
    A peaceful Pakistani Muslim.

  51. Islam as a religion does preach peace and harmony. Quran/Sunnah (–> Prophet Muhammad life) mentions peace in several verses and repeatedly lays a great deal of emphasis on peace, respect and love…….

    Well… most of the religions do that.

    This is not actually THE problem.

    The actual predicament is that it also lays out certain utterly violent, sadistic and atrocious ways of punishment for situations that are
    bound to change with time.

    When you have a punishment of “stoning to death” for committing adultery and on the other hand allowing men to “keep a mistress” (captured in war), permissions to raise hands on your wife (even with all the list of conditions attached), laws against naming an adopted child as a rightful heir , death penalty for apostasy (utter double standards) and several other rules contradictory to peace then there is definitely room for misinterpretation leading to violence. In my view point; if Islam, is/or to be become a religion of peace, must be able to adopt to changing times rather than sticking to the philosophy of imposing 1400 years old laws in today’s world.

    Just my two cents!

  52. @Anonymous – You must be full of mercy to those who rape your loved ones. That is an indoctrination Muslims might want to miss it. Ignorance is blissful. Enjoy the world you have built.

  53. At anonymous, who speaks of raped women! Go ask the sisters of your churches, what is to become of their lust at the hands of your Father aka Pastors. Then talk abt right you retard!!

  54. @Hussain Fahmy & Anonymous above;

    From the mouths of peace, eh? Stunning example for your religion. Next all we need is death threats because someone drew your precious prophet’s foot in a cartoon.

  55. @Anonymous – To believe that being free is a good thing doesn’t take indoctrination (believe it or not), to believe that road robbers, killers and rapists were good fellows, does. There are only two possible reasons for Muslim women to accept oppression. Either because that concept has been ‘internalized’ into their heads, or punched in their heads.
    The arrogance is calling the truth arrogant.
    The ignorance is calling the facts ignorance.

  56. @H.N. – There can’t be misinterpretation. It’s an illusion.
    There are two kinds of Q verses (&hadith), peaceful and violent, however there’s the concept of abrogation /22:52, 2:106/ in Quran, by which older peaceful surah’s were overridden by newer violent ones (interesting that peaceful ones were ‘revealed’ while Muhammad was weak, and later violent ones when he had become strong /so called Meccan surah’s/). So there can be either a strict (in accordance with abrogation) violent interpretation, or (if you ignore abrogation, as imams purposely omit it in front of one kind of audience and emphasize to another) a choice between the 2 interpretations. However an ideology that contains violent, unjust, aggressive and oppressive concepts, is not acceptable in 21st century, at least not in the free world.

  57. @Hussain Fahmy – Ignorance is bliss for ignorant but curse for its victims.
    Aisha Duhulow, rape victim – ‘Don’t kill me,’ she screamed. Then they stoned her to death.
    That is the practice non-Muslims want to miss.

  58. @Anonymous: You are right about it not being a misinterpretation.
    Come to think of it, it not is even an illusion. It simply is barbaric and inhuman to carry out any of those actions (that I mentioned above). May it be in context, out of context, misinterpreted or even misrepresented, it just is plain and simple violence and nothing else.

  59. @Anonymous: You are right about it not being a misinterpretation.
    Come to think of it, it not is even an illusion. It simply is barbaric and inhuman to carry out any of those actions (that I mentioned above). May it be in context, out of context, misinterpreted or even misrepresented, it just is plain and simple violence and nothing else.

  60. Haroon
    I don’t have any doubt whatsoever ever in saying Islam is the religion of peace. The greatest testimony is given in Quran when it declares the killing of one innocent human being means killing of entire humanity.Islam has the largest no of followers in the world. If it is not a religion of peace than why non Muslims in the west are converting to Islam in great numbers.Do they want to become terrorists?
    There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and Islam is the fastest-growing religion. If the evil carnage we witnessed on Sept. 11 were typical of the faith, and Islam truly inspired and justified such violence, its growth and the increasing presence of Muslims in both Europe and the U.S. would be a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, this is not the case.
    A small faction of Muslims who turns towards terrorists acts is in no way a true representatives of Islam.
    .

    In words quoted by Muhammad (PBUH) in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, “O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another” (49: 13)–not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.

  61. @Haroon – Why do you believe that 5:32 is any more valid than
    9:29
    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”

    or 9:123
    “O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. ”

    or 8:39
    “And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah..”

    or 9:5
    And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the non-believers wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way”

    or Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4363:
    “The Messenger of Allah stood up and called out to them
    (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe. … You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land Those of you who have any property with them should sell it, otherwise they should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (and they may have to go away leaving everything behind).”

    So maybe the problem is definition of “innocent human being”?

  62. “Fastest growing religion” an absolute champion amongst
    pro-islamic arguments, is not an argument at all.
    What if not Islam inspired 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Woolwich, Boston, Bali, Mumbai and several thousands other attacks?
    “Not true representatives of Islam” is a ‘No true Scotsman’ argument (as GordonHide has already stated).
    Their interpretation of the Quran is (at least) as valid as yours, but if we take into account the principle of abrogation and numerous hadith, it is by far more accurate than yours is.

  63. Talking about last Muhammad’s sermons:
    (Hadith) Malik’s Muwatta, 45:5:17
    “One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, “May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration. Two [religions] SHALL NOT CO-EXIST in the land of the Arabs.”

  64. Haroon, as I mentioned once before, there are Ayahs and Hadees for peace, love and respect but there are so many incongruous versus, rules and islamic laws that essentially make no sense. What if I for one believe in those that suit to my state of mind and not yours?
    I believe, you feel enthused by Mehdi Hassan who also underlines again and again about 1.2 Billion Muslims and a tiny fraction being terrorists. Well, a tiny fraction might only be acting as terrorists but there indisputably are significant numbers who are being tormented in countries like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Yemen and so many other countries around the world.
    Coming from the same background my main problem is that people living in these countries are simply not given a choice. A Christian barber (wrongly) alleged speaks ill of prophet and a whole Christian community living in a neighborhood pays in Pakistan. A 13 year old Christian girl misspells prophet’s name in her exam and got kicked out of school, women are forced to wear hijab in Saudi with no options attached, women are still not allowed to drive or vote, in Saudia if you kill someone you pay blood money (if the other party accepts it) and if by luck thats a non-Muslim women you pay less than 900 USD (well I understand a muslim man has to earn and run the house while a non-Muslim women just are not good enough to pay the bills).
    Now, even if by any (imaginary) standards, all these are not part of Islam but are still being used in the name of Islam, make me think that there is something wrong somewhere and it sure is not only matter of being out of context.
    I think it is high time that Islam becomes flexible enough to adapt to changing times and stop following a Prophet blindly, who was born raised and lived in a totally different culture and era.

  65. Here’s a simple psychological test.
    A person says to you: “I respect you and love you with all my heart, and i’m going to stab you with this rusty knife”.
    On what part of the statement would you focus?
    I wonder why Muslims insist for us to focus on the first part?

  66. @Hussain Fahmy – We all have gotten used to labeling consistent, logical, reality-based and well-documented critique of Islam as psychological conditions.
    Your reply says it all.

  67. WOW! I have never read such bigoted views in my life! I’m British, I’m white and I’m proud to say I’m a Muslim. I converted to Islam as a teenager. I didn’t have any Muslim friends I wasnt pressured into it and I didn’t do it for the sake of a boy. We were learning about it in religious education and something about this so called violent religion gave me peace, calm a sense of belonging. I did my research go in touch with the closest mosque and the rest is history. Too this day it’s the best decision I ever made. I am a revert like the men who killed that soldier does that mean I am like them?! If your irish does that mean your an ira bomber?! Are all Germans like hitler?! You can not judge the majority by the actions of the minority. My religion promotes violence no more then the bible which says ‘an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth’ if it was a violent religion then it would be the only religion that existed now surely because everyone else would have been killed?! But we are not like the crusaders or the Spanish Inquisition we do not force our religion on anyone. I chose it and like a billion other people I’m glad I did and despite what anyone says I wouldn’t change that for anything.
    Oh and to those narrow minded individuals if you believe Islam is a violent religion with views like that you are going the right way about creating more violence. After all if you can’t beat them join them!

  68. People listening will filter what was said through their own filters i.e. personal experiences, how they were raised, their prejudices, their values etc. like a prism with many refractions. My point is if you didn’t like Islam before this debate your automatically like it after this debate, rightly or wrongly. Prejudice takes time and effort to change unfortunately and it’s easier to follow the majority, even if the completely wrong.

  69. Thank God that common sense and the truth prevailed.
    Funny how some one quotes verses of the Quran above, without context, the necessary scholarly commentary just like the extremists have and would do “osma bin laden agrees with them” mehdi hassan talking about the opposition.

  70. @Nadiraah.

    Not much “context” is needed for the notion of your hell. Such is not a peaceful belief, ergo you’re not a “religion of peace.” All these people focus on politics when it’s really as simple as that.

  71. @Winnie: Well, I am delighted you brought a bit of personal touch in this discussion. Please allow me to do the same.

    I am a Pakistani, I am Brown and I am an atheist. Have you ever lived in a Muslim country or are you still enjoying the Muslim faith in Britain? My question to you is what does Islam says to my so-called fellow Muslim brothers in Pakistan to do with me. Does Islam give me an option to declare myself as an atheist and still live in Islamabad with my family with Atheist written on my passport? Well no, it does not and so does the Pakistani law.

    Many convert Muslims are living their lives gleefully in western countries whereas people who wish not to pursue islam as their religion receive death threats in their homes. It makes me wonder that Islam and its followers are not completely supple to changing times and in fact Islam is not for the eternity and all the times to come that it claims.

    I, on a personal note, do not mind people following Islam as long as it stays away from the affairs of the state. Everyone should have a right to chose the life they want to live. This right is certainly not given in Countries like Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Sudan and many more. A christian journalist was beheaded few days ago in Syria. Now, I understand that you might blame it on the followers and not on Islam but for the sake of humanity we need to atleast admit that those people were followers of Islam atleast in their own perception of mind.

  72. @yes, In pakistan we have religion printed on our passport. ISLAM on every page of the passport.

  73. @ Nadiraah

    Whatever the context is, It is simply ridiculous and not ok to beat up you wife under any condition, slaughter a man because he converted to another religion, force as a law of land for women to wear hijab, not allowing to claim your adopted child as your lawful heir. I do not understand that why can’t the so-called modern and right minded Muslims admit that such heinous parts of Islam that give space to lunatics to create violence & brutality has to go and should never be allowed under any circumstances.

  74. Here’s a wrench to toss out there; Obviously the extreme to which Abrahamic religions take their hate and persecution is just… bad. However, I don’t see why they’re all so persistent on insisting that they’re religions of peace.

    I do not follow or practice a “religion of peace,” and I’m doing just fine.

  75. @h.n
    I lived in Dubai for a year my husband is Pakistani and although I love him dearly he has struggled with his faith. He calls himself a Muslim but does not follow his religion. He does not pray rarely fasts etc. Does this make him an atheist?! As a Muslim who practices her faith should I divorce this man because he does not follow it the way I do?! I have made countless friends who are the same they were born into the religion but do not understand it. Should I punish them for their ignorance?! My religion is part of who I am but I don’t let it define me and people shouldn’t tar us all with the same brush.
    As for living in Dubai at times I found it a struggle but at times I find living in the uk a struggle. I don’t wear a head scarf so to look at me you wouldn’t know I was a Muslim. I faced the same problems in Dubai that I face here when I go to a halal butchers or a mosque. All I’m saying is you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover not all Muslims are the same. As for not being able to express yourself I found that is one of the greatest freedoms Islam offers. If you choose not to believe in god then that is your choice.the prophet pbuh never forced it on anyone a fact many people in power forget. As far as Muslim countries go they need to reform their laws as not everyone who lived in the same land of the prophet pbuh was a Muslim but they were never made to feel like outsiders because the prophet was once the outsider as he believed what nobody else did.

  76. @winnie

    “He calls himself a Muslim but does not follow his religion. He does not pray rarely fasts etc. Does this make him an atheist?!”

    Does he believe in a god?

  77. @Nadiraah – Instead of mentioning the magic word “context” (assuming it’s enough per se), please provide the context. Just please don’t say it takes decades to understand.

  78. @Winnie – Sorry, this debate is about facts not personal feelings.
    Facts cannot be bigoted, quotes can.
    If you think you’re capable of refuting the quotes, feel free to do so.
    I obviously don’t judge the book by its cover, but by the content.
    No one said all Muslims are the same. I said there are two
    (according to what’s written in Q/H) equally valid interpretations, one of which (violent one) is more accurate than the other (as explained above).
    Why do you use the verb “are” when talking about Germans and
    Hitler? Do you think that “are” suits better than “were”, to your point? Anyway, it’s a fairly good example. Not all Germans were like Hitler. Actually the max number was 7%, that leaves 93% that didn’t stop them.
    Were majority of Afghans Taliban? Certainly not. Did it prevent the Taliban rule?

  79. @Winnie – When you’re talking about the Bible promoting violence, are you forgetting that the Old Testament is an integral part of Islam too? Islam also introduced more violent events in it, not even existed in the original scripture, like the story of Khadir, which was used in an especially cruel hadith Sahih Muslim 4457. Even though an Atheist, i must say that Christianity is based on the New
    Testament and teachings and life of Jesus Christ. Islam is based
    on Quran (Hadith) and teachings and life of Muhammad.
    Compare the two as role models. The Old Testament is completely irrelevant as a doctrine, for Christianity and Islam.

  80. @Winnie – Since no debate about Islam and its impact to mankind is possible without mentioning the Crusaders:
    Crusaders held a narrow strip of land and Jerusalem for a limited time, after the christian city was conquered by Arab armies, and christian population expelled 1099.
    As for “you” not imposing your religion on anyone, what is
    hadith Bukhari 019-4363 about?? What are verses 9:29, 8:39, 9:5
    and others about? How about converting churches into mosques?

  81. @Winnie – Sense of peace and belonging to an ideology is a
    personal matter, but why would it be preventing a factual and
    ethical analysis? I seriously doubt that you as a teenager knew
    much about Islam, and i doubt you know much of it today.
    After a ruthless assault and conquest of Khaybar, Muhammad
    noticed beautiful Safiyah bint Huyai, whose husband was tortured
    (in order to reveal the spot of a hidden tribe’s treasure) and
    beheaded, and the father and brother killed as well.
    Bukhari:V4. 143 /V5.523
    “It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him.
    Her husband had been killed, so Allah’s Apostle selected her for
    himself.”
    But a companion Dihyah had already taken her for himself.
    Ishaq:511
    “When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the
    Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The
    women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims. Muhammad made her manumission [Webster: “a Medieval word signifying the authority of a master to release one from slavery”] as her ‘Mahr [wedding gift].'”
    Ishaq:517
    “When the Apostle married Safiyah on his way out of town, she was beautified and combed, putting her in a fitting state for the Messenger. The Apostle passed the night with her in his tent. Abu Ayyub, girt with his sword, guarded the Apostle, going round the tent until he saw him emerge in the morning. Abu said, ‘I was afraid for you with this woman for you have killed her father, her husband, and her people.”

    This horrible historical event that left me literally sleepless when i learned of it, struggling with nightmares for nights, doesn’t mean anything to some people. How can a man who committed such a crime (and dozens of others) be considered perfect?
    I am unable to understand such a moral code and the sense of peace it gives. How is it possible that we are that different?

  82. @Winnie:

    Well from the information you provided about your husband, he is certainly not an Atheist if he believes in any supernatural being running the affairs of our lives or universe for that matter. Just to clarify this is not the topic of this discussion.

    Now coming back to your point of Islam/prophet/quran does not force islam on anyone. I am sad to tell you that you are either misinformed or you choose to rely on the peaceful orders of your holy book.

    How do you responds to the orders in the quran that I have listed below and for the love of your GOD please do not bring CONTEXT into it because this is plain and simple brutality and viciousness in every possible situation.

    Qur’an (4:89) – “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.”
    Qur’an (9:11-12) – “But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief – Lo! they have no binding oaths – in order that they may desist.”

    Same goes for your prophet. Is Bukhari not your authentic book for Hadees?

    Bukhari (52:260) – “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ” Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.
    Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”

    How can you even say that Islam does not force anything? Not only Muslim countries but in my opinion, there is a lot of reforming required in Islam itself.

  83. Christianity allowed for Hitler to do what he did . islam is pure . true. Nd its values if studied nd followed cant falter in living peacfully. Take your alcohol. By forbidding this a step towards peace.most ppl who are moral in this world dnt drink.if islam allows for warfare(not evil violence) which many christian s.jews have involved themselves in history then we all are the same. All human beings.your alcohol kills in drunk driving millions a year. Most ppl agree under the influence is wrong yet you allow such things in your religion. Yet many muslims will never question. We believe all faiths has its part in history and islwm.jewdism and Christianity are all in 1.we are cousins. We share this earth.1 pure god.so let us live in harmony……..

  84. I am not denying that the Quran has violent verses but so do other religious books like the bible
    Ezekiel 9:6 “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . ”

    Isaiah 13:16 “Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.”

    Deuteronomy 13:15 “Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . ”

    Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . ”

    Exodus 32:27 “. . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.”

    Deut 21:10-12 “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; ”

    Exodus 31:15 ” . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”

    Deut 21:21 “And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . ”

    Does that make Christianity a violent religion?! After all Catholics and Protestants have been arguing for decades. As for churches into mosques what about mosques into churches look at Grenada.
    Also would you have us live exactly by the Quran the good and the bad or would you prefer us to go with the time.

  85. @Anonymous

    “[And] its values if studied [and] followed cant falter in living [peacefully].”

    First off, “nd” isn’t a word. However, which values here? Because I can tell you a core value – non-believers and sinners will burn forever in hellfire – is not peaceful in the slightest. It’s also incredibly hypocritical, as the sinners who believe in your god don’t suffer for eternity, they only get a comparable slap on the wrist.

    “We share this earth. [One] pure god. so let us live in harmony”

    Your god is not everyone’s god.

    ———–

    And yes, winnie, Christianity is just as non-peaceful and violent.

  86. @Winnie:

    Well I was focusing on Islam only because it is the topic of discussion and Christianity was not. Since you brought it up, I never said Christianity is a peaceful religion but still, I would like to point out that Christians have been able to make changes in their ways of living and have adapted with changing times and this is the least of what I, as an X-Muslim expect from Islam.

    As far as I am concerned, I do not support a religion for myself and stay neutral for others who choose to follow it only as far as they do not affect others. I think, it might have been the necessity of time when the religions first emerged to make a pathway for the concept of moral and immoral by creating an illusion of a judgment day. It played well on one side by giving a concept of actions have consequences but on the other side, it brought a lot of chaos, violence and massacre.

    With the changing times as we are excelling further with real, experimented and proven facts, we as human beings are exploring our true identity by achieving every milestone, scientifically, in our way. I personally think that I do need neither a fear factor not the love of god to have moral/ethical values. I have a son but I would be the last person to ever tell him that you must obey ALLAH or you will burn in HELL. This is not only illogical but extremely brutal and gruesome.

  87. @Winnie – That ‘religious book’ that you quote (as an example of “others”) is called The Old Testament, and it’s an INTEGRAL PART of the Islamic religion, so how does it make look Islam better and Christianity worse?
    The OT is just a starting point for both religions and has absolutely nothing to do with their practice. The actual doctrine is in The New testament for Christianity and the Quran and Hadith for Islam.
    If you have true intention to compare, compare the teachings of
    Jesus Christ and Muhammad.
    I am an atheist, but i won’t equalize to satisfy political correctness.

    You don’t seem to have any problem with deeds of the ‘Prophet’.
    Safiyah’s fate didn’t seem to touch you.
    (Bukhari 19:173)
    “The Prophet recited Suratan-Najm at Mecca and prostrated while reciting it and those who were with him did the same except an old man who took a handful of small stones or earth and lifted it to his forehead and said, “This is sufficient for me.” Later on, I saw him killed as a non-believer.”
    Compare to J.C.

  88. @RaginPagan – There is virtually nothing violent in The New Testament. Today that religion has only formal links to the OT (as Islam has after all), and no one preaches the Old Testament concepts. Christianity is just an obstacle for a faster overall progress and advance of human freedoms, but it has neither power nor intention of destroying foundations of our civilization.

  89. @Anon

    “There is virtually nothing violent in The New Testament.”

    Pardon me while I laugh my balls off. Not only is there preaching of “hellfire” and punishments for sinners, there’s also the entire book of “Revelation” which casts non-believers to a very bloody and violent end.

    Then, to compound this, we have contemporary actions by christians. Violence against homosexuals, non-christians, etc. Hatred and bigotry and xenophobia being taken to such extreme measures that make lives for those of your “neighbors” (whom you are instructed to love, by your mentor,) a living hell; never-minding the fiery eternal pit that you all constantly or passively condemn us to through our non-christianity.

    See, this isn’t just about what your books say. That has a huge part in it, yes. It’s also about what your doctrines say, and how you all (as adherents,) carry your beliefs through interactions with others. Every single abrahamic that I have ever met that dares call themselves the members of a “peaceful religion” is doing nothing better than lying to themselves. Either that or their incredibly foolish, and don’t see the contradiction of “This is a peaceful, loving religion, but if you don’t believe in this peaceful loving god then he’s going to burn you forever.”

  90. @ Anon (afterthought)

    “no one preaches the Old Testament concepts.”

    Tell that to the creationists that cling to Genesis myths. Not to mention (referenced above) the groups that sling hatred based on Deuteronomy and Leviticus (also while ignoring parts of Leviticus that apply to them.)

    “it (christianity) has neither power nor intention of destroying foundations of our civilization.”

    Tell that to the governors and senators who, in their pious war against free will allowing for actions that they don’t approve of and are not inherently criminal, these christian zealots have cast their states back to the 1920’s in regards to Women’s Rights.

  91. Islam is no more violent then christianity. The differnce is everyone is much more kean to focus on the violence of islam then any other religion. For example every time a muslim is a suicide bomber their religion is stated in the headline how about when their were suicide bombers in ireland dont remeber there religion making the headlines only suicide bomber kills 19 etc. as for the argument that the old testament is obsolite well The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:

    Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

    Scripture — all of Scripture — is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.”
    Jesus in the New Testament is also violent: he promises to kill or subjugate all of his enemies, which includes those whose only crime is to refuse to believe in him. So, even if we completely disregard the OT, this wouldn’t solve the “problem”.
    also why did the church fight so hard to not have the Old Testament completely Disregarded?!
    If we were to bring out a ‘New Testament’ of the Quran which had less violence in it would that then satisfy those who believe it is a violent religion. Would that make things better?!

  92. First… so do you believe that ONE WRONG MAKES THE OTHER WRONG RIGHT? Is it so? Sorry, I dont agree

    and regarding the new testament, if it is less violent then sure we have a start but it is definitely not the end of violence. So, ideally speaking in an utopian world, if any sane version is to come, it should negate parts of quran with violence and should atleast try to focus less on burning in hell part.

    I think one should follow something if they really believe in it for bieng right rather than due to fear of god or his love. It is more like having a relationship with someone on internet but only in this case the person at the other end of the computer does not even respond.

  93. No because two wrongs don’t make a right. My point is any religion can be called violent if that is what you focus on. Any movie can be violent if that is all you look for all depends on ur filter. I don’t think all Christians are the same so why do people assume all Muslims are violent.

  94. You’re not making much sense there, bub. “We” share the same god? No. You abrahamics might, but that’s hardly everyone. It’s also debatable as to whether yhvh and allah are the same deity.

    And all christians are “hitlers”? Far from it. Very far from it. Just as not all muslims are raving barbarians. Yet neither are a religion of peace.

  95. You obviously don’t know my books (even though i mentioned
    it for several times). I have no mentor and i don’t condemn
    you for your “non-christianity”.
    Refusing to equalize Islam and Christianity makes me a Christian?
    I thought it takes some faith.
    As for hatred and bigotry, wasn’t you the one who said “Why do we call people that we do not like “my friend”?”

  96. I don’t care about preaching of “hellfire” be it islamic or christian one, as it won’t burn anyone, nor i’m interested in any afterlife punishments and rewards.
    When i say our civilization is jeopardized, i don’t mean by the Genesis myths. Who, apart from manic street preachers, slings Deuteronomy and Leviticus and preaches Revelation?
    Can the governors and senators abolish the US constitution, and can they destroy the free world?
    In so called “christian” countries punishable is violence against homosexuals not homosexuality.
    What violence against non-christians are you referring to?
    What my doctrines say?

  97. As an counterbalance to the whole New Testament you specified the Revelation (i said “virtually nothing”).
    If Quran would be as violent/peaceful as the New Testament is (including its own hypothetical “Revelation”) i wouldn’t be spending any more time debating with its adherents than debating with Christians. Unfortunately, it is VERY FAR from the truth.
    Was Jesus a despised ragged hippie or a warlord? Did he kill someone or raped someone? Did he waged expansionist wars taking sex-slaves? Did he have libido of 30 men?

    Is there a danger of establishing a Christian “Sharia” somewhere in the world? Do you fear of a Deuteronomy Law in your country?
    What is the punishment for apostasy in Christianity?
    Revelation 2:5
    “Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.”

    Anyway, representatives of Islam should appreciate your change of the subject.

  98. @Winnie – (For 5th time) Nobody said all Muslims are violent, so please stop defending what is not attacked.
    If you put your own filter down, how do you see the fate of Safiyah
    bint Huyayy and the act of the Prophet?

  99. @RaginPagan “Atheism is the belief that no gods or higher powers or supernatural beings exist at all.” — Look it up in the dictionary. It’s simply a lack of belief in gods. You can belief in any other sort of ridiculousness superstition you like.

  100. @Anon1 –

    “You obviously don’t know my books”

    –“I have no mentor and i don’t condemn you for your “non-christianity”,”

    That’d be Jesus. See, I don’t believe him to be a god, so he’s nothing more than your ethereal spiritual mentor. It is supposed to be his teachings that you all follow. And you don’t condemn me – skiddle-dee-doo! But you know what does? Christianity as a religion. Islam too, don’t think I’ve forgotten about them. You as a solitary believer does not pardon the doctrines and mass actions of your religion; the same for Islam.

    Through the simple act of non-belief, I am now subjugated to the very violent notion of burning in “hell” forever unless I change my self-destructive ways. You could have the prettiest person say that as nice as they can, even tack on “Gosh, I just care about your soul so much!” and it’s still a violent “Us against Them” notion.

    –“As for hatred and bigotry, wasn’t you the one who said “Why do we call people that we do not like “my friend”?””

    Good thing I don’t call people I don’t like “friend,” or even claim to belong to a religion of peace.

    –“In so called “christian” countries punishable is violence against homosexuals not homosexuality.”

    No, it’s really not. Look at what was happening in Uganda. They’re president passed a “Anti-homosexuality law” making homosexuality punishable by death. She even called it a “christmas present.” How nice. Or even here in the US. The Supreme Court rules in favor of equal marriage, so what do all these good, upstanding chrisitans do? Scream, yell, protest, make it into a law that having a homosexual marriage or even applying for one is a CRIME. That’s not peaceful at all.

    Cutting past a sob-story of opposition (and make no mistake, you both are not peaceful towards non-adherents of your faith. There are news articles you can find in regards to this,) islam is no better. In both of your beliefs, you actively oppose other religions, rather than peacefully coexisting with them. You intrude on the lives of others, imposing your beliefs and your lifestyle. This is not peaceful. Then you condemn those who refuse your beliefs to an eternity of fire and torture. Belief or no, it is not peaceful.

  101. I sympathize with you being subjugated to the violent notion of burning in hell forever. It must be very stressful experience for you.
    However, even after my repeated unambiguous replies, you’re still convinced that i’m a Christian. Comically enough, i’m pretty sure you’re the only one here with that impression.
    I doubt this comment board deserves such an intelligent debater.

  102. Stressful only in that it’s a stolen and misapplied notion. Make no mistake, I lose no sleep over whether I’m going to burn in some punishment afterlife. Yet the existence of such doctrine alone makes for a non-peaceful religion.

    As for you, personally, I don’t know or care what you are. You are “anonymous.” I speak in standing opposition to the notion that the Abrahamic religions are “peaceful,” christianity and islam both included. Your personal beliefs are inconsequential.

    However I am certain that you can see how your presentation of christianity and defense thereof could lead to the assumption that you are a christian of sorts, yes?

  103. (For the sixth time) surely if Islam is a violent religion and you follow this religion that makes you a violent Muslim (follower of Islam)

  104. Who here has said it’s a “violent religion,” again? Oh, right, nobody. Well, just you. Because we’ve just said that it’s not a religion of peace.

    See the difference? I’m sure you don’t. If your religion were “violent,” then every single muslim the world over would be violent. As we very well know, they are not. Yet your religion contains ideals that are not peaceful, are xenophobic, and are quite horrendous. While these ideas hardly become violence, they are not peaceful.

  105. @Winnie – As Peter Atkins said in the debate, “Everyone can select (from Quran/Islam) according to their appetites.”
    He also said, “You should not weight good and evil equally in the
    balance. One evil outweighs one good many times over.”
    A very significant thought. Do you disagree?

  106. @Winie – Some Muslims will see only love in Islam, some will see only cutting throats, but if one want to explore the true nature of Islam (without personal preferences) there will inevitably occur the contradiction – cut throats and love.
    Pardon my phobia, but i can’t ignore the first part, focusing on the
    second one.
    So it is not important how do you personally, or any Muslim, perceive your ideology, but what are its consequences on personal, social and state level.

  107. @Winnie – Why are you conspicuously ignoring the questions about the fate of Safiyah bint Huyayy and the Prophet’s conduct?
    Does it raise ethical questions? Or is it completely irrelevant to you, as it seems to be?

  108. In the name of God, the most gracious, the most merciful.

    This is how every single verse of the Quraan was reveled onto the prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) every verse…except one. Would you like to know more about the one verse that had been reveled without this opening sentence? It is the verse talking about forgiveness, this verse was sent down when the prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) was over taken by anger when a young gravedigger had come to him saying he had violated the body of a young woman that had passed away, the prophet said in anger that there is no forgiveness for you in the eyes of the almighty. Allah (SWT) had sent down this verse (in anger) immediately after this incident saying forgiveness is in the hands of the almighty, that we do not have the right to say someone will not be forgiven.

    Please share with me how you find this a religion of hate and war when the one we worship is so merciful and peaceful ?

    Are you aware that the Quran states very clearly that “the killing of one innocent human is equivalent to the killing of the entire mankind” ? That the jihad which every one is so afraid about ,is in fact not a open license to kill all not believers ? What it is, is the struggle that every Muslim has to make in the name of Allah, a struggle mostly against ones dark side or bad habits. The jihad of war or violence is the extreme end of the scale and is only to be under taken as a last resort after negotiations have failed and your lives and the lives of your people are under threat.

    Islam is a way of life. The Quran is a Muslims manual. Inevitably there will verses regarding war as the Quran covers every sector of life, under certain conditions yes war is necessary. If you argue against that then the whole of humanity has been wrong for all of history and should never of entered into any war of any sort. The verses regarding warfare are not open invitations to start wars but rules of war, such as do not harm innocent civilians as well as the women and children.

    With regard to the Muslim terrorist organizations, they are openly going against the teachings of the Quran and the advises of the prophet Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) and are their by out of the fold of Islam.

    My friends please understand Islam is not a religion of oppression, war, cut-throat behavior and a disregard for all other religions. Nor is it a pacifistic religion were they can be pushed around and held in submission. It is however a religion of justice, compassion and love for your fellow humans. it is a complete, perfect way of life

    In the words of Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) “People are of two kinds: Either your brothers in faith or your equals in humanity.”

    May peace and blessings be upon all of us

  109. @Saeef khan

    “Please share with me how you find this a religion of hate and war when the one we worship is so merciful and peaceful ?”

    Please, share with us how you can excuse this “merciful and peaceful” god burning people in “hell” for all eternity for something so small as disbelief.

  110. @Saeef khan
    Unfortunately there are many others who have interpreted the teachings of the Quran differently. There is no way to tell, from the point of view of an outsider, which is the more valid interpretation. What you haven’t accepted is that the people who’s actions you disapprove of are as equally sure you are wrong in your interpretation. And their claim is as valid as yours.

  111. @theraginpagan

    A Muslim believes when one dies, a angel is sent to ask the person three questions. “Who is your lord, what is your religion? Who is your prophet?” If the person is for example is a Christian his/her response would be :God , Christianity , Jesus ( may peace and blessings be upon him)

    Those would be the correct answer for him and if he followed the true teachings of Christianity. That would be accepted by all mighty god

    It is illogical to claim to have a peaceful and upright God if he does not accept the worship of someone who strongly believes that who ever he is worshiping is “God”

    Islam is considered to be perfection of religion as the Quran says “on this day I (god) have perfected your religion”

    That is why some may consider acts of worship to be in vein if you follow any other religion.

    However, If someone truly believed that he/she was worshiping the right and only god then verily God almighty , the most gracious the most merciful , would reward said person with peace in the life to come (haven) if that was not the case then God has lied to us by saying he is a god of mercy and justice in which case we need not worry about having any debates as the creator is not truthful

    Which I hope you are able to understand is not the case

  112. @gordonhide

    Indeed it is unfortunate. What is being done by these organizations is directly against the teachings of the glorious Quran and the prophets advises, that is why is is such a minority that do these acts. One who goes against the Quran so not a muslim and if he claims he kills in the name of Allah he is a liar using the name of the almighty as an excuse to commit these horrendous acts.

    Islam is perfect… The people who follow the religion, are not.

  113. “That is why there is such a minority that do these acts.”

    My apologies for the error

  114. So Islam is perfect? even with the idea of burning a person like me in hell, or killing someone like me who decides to leave it and stop believing in illusions a religion provides, or stopping me from naming my adopted child as my lawful heir, allowing me to marry 4 times (at a time), beating up my wife (yes I know with several conditions attached but still allows me), punishing for adultery even with mutual consent.

    There is no issue of having different interpretations when it comes to Islam. Some Muslims take Quran literally and some luckily do not.

    I really do not see a point in having morals at all only out of fear or love of your god. Being an X-Muslim raised in Saudi and Pakistan, I think, Whatever Islam is, it is far from being perfect.

  115. @h.n
    I’m sorry that you seem not to understand that most of the statements you are portraying as fact is indeed false, you say you grew up in Saudi Arabia ? Are you aware that Saudi does not follow the laws of shariyah 100% the laws you state are laws of Saudi with the exception of the marring of 4 wives by one man, you grew up in Saudi so you should be familiar with the population stats? The woman heavily out number the men, the idea is that no woman is left uncared for. You my find the act of polygamy to be taboo, but the western culture seems to be okay with having mistrises?

    Are you aware that the Quran is the only one of the religious scripts that says “if one is not capable of looking after each wife and treating them well and equal, MARRY ONLY ONE” search the bible, Torah and you say that you also grew up in Pakistan so you should be familiar to the bhagavat Gita ? That too does not give restrictions as to how many women one can marry

    With regard to killing one who converts to another religion, that is absolute nonsense. Find me a verse of the Quran that says that? The Quran clearly states that; to each his own with regards to beliefs I will not harm you and your beliefs do not harm me and my beliefs.. It says you cannot apose a belief onto someone by force or by verbal actions

    Unless you interperate that as “so now you have to kill someone with different belief or faith to you” I would stay silent and not spread lies about Islam

  116. Lying is not among the many traits I have but I am very happy to atleast see that you have not read the very book you claim to follow. Before you finish alleging me of lying and misleading, I would recommend you to stay contented and cherish the happy memories and moments that you have in your life with Islam.

    Coming back to the topic. Quran specifically mentions the punishment for apostasy. let me take this opportunity to bring some information at your doorstep from the “so-called great book” we know as Quran.
    Qur’an (4:89) – “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.”
    Qur’an (9:11-12) – “But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief – Lo! they have no binding oaths – in order that they may desist.”
    Same goes for your prophet. Is Bukhari not your authentic book for Hadees?

    Bukhari (52:260) – “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ” Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.
    Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”

    Now, I am not here to argue whether your version and understanding of Quran is peaceful or not but there are hell a lot of claims and statements in Quran that are far from peaceful and perfect. No matter what context these statements were made in, it does not matter as far as these claims were made.

    Now coming to Saudi women issue. So the only solution Islam provides for having more women in society is polygamy? Are you serious? what a perfect solution for a progressive society.

  117. and yeah about Saudi’s not following Islam. tell that to Saudis and many others who tend to follow them. Plus, it seems every nation/society/sect has a different version of Islam that they think is accurate. Sunnis think Shias are wrong. Salafis, Ismailis, Brelavis, Non Takfiri Deobandis, Takfiri Deobandis, Bohras, Sufi Tareeqahs, Noor Bakhsis, Ibadis etc etc are all wrong except the one they follow.
    Comeon man, who ever you think is right may be right, I dont care but atleast be man enough to admit what lies in your holy book is there rather than blaming others of lying.

  118. @Saeef khan
    1) Why didn’t you actually quote the verse 5:32 (Muslims never quote it) instead of presenting a part of it (“the killing of one innocent human is equivalent to the killing of the entire mankind”). Can i ask you to quote the whole ayah 32 (it’s pretty short)?

    2) Do ayah’s 9:29 and 8:39 say something about innocence?
    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”
    And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease – then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.”

    3) If “The jihad of war or violence is the extreme end of the scale and is only to be under taken as a last resort after negotiations have failed and your lives and the lives of your people are under threat” – how do you explain the spreading of Islam by wars, from Medina to Mecca, Arabian peninsula, Mesopotamia, Sassanid empire, Indian subcontinent, Egypt, North Africa, Balkans and Spain, in self-defense?
    Why war-booty (including female sex-slaves) and exact methods of distribution among fighters for islam, is mentioned more than 30 times in Quran and Hadith (1/5 for instance had to go to the Messenger and his near relatives).

    4) If Islam is a religion of “compassion and love for your fellow humans”, why there are verses 8:51 and 98:6 ?
    Why the fellow humans cannot enter Mecca, and why they cannot date and marry Muslim women? Why they cannot be “protectors/helpers” to Muslims, and why “he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them”?

    5) Why didn’t you try to give a comment to the Prophet’s “marriage” to Safiyah?

  119. It amazes me that how people are ready to fight for something that they have no complete knowledge of. I simply fail to understand that.

    Just to mention quranic and hadees versions of what I mentioned earlier about child adoption and beating up your wife. Now I am not denying that there must be versus in Quran about caring for adopted child or loving your wives but these are also quotes that are found in the same Quran and Hadees. And as I always emphasize please do not play the context game here.

    Adoption:
    Prophet Said ” Whoever attributes himself to other than his father or ascribes to other than his manumator (the person who frees a slave), then the continuous curse of Allah is upon him”. [Narrated by Abu Daawood.]
    He has not made your adopted children your true children. These are only words that you utter with your mouths. But Allah proclaims the Truth and directs you to the Right Path. Call them by [the names of] their fathers. It is more equitable in the sight of Allah. But if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brothers in faith and those entrusted to you. There’s no sin for your mistaken utterances, but (there’s sin) for what you say deliberately. Allah always forgives and grants.” (Al-Ahzab/ The Allies 33:4-5)

    Wife Beating:
    [Quran 4: 34] Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely Allah is most high.
    Quran 38:44 And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with It and do not break your oath; surely We found him patient; most excellent the servant! Surely he was frequent m returning (to Allah).

  120. Kahn the short and skinny is that I don’t care for excuses or reasons from your book. Your hell is a part of your religion, ergo your religion is not peaceful. Your doctrines allow for violence through whatever means or “misunderstanding,” ergo your doctrines are not peaceful. Your culture has been at war for longer than I or anyone alive can remember, so it can’t be said that the Middle East is even “peaceful.”

    Thus, islam is in no way shape or form a “religion of peace.”

  121. Indeed, TheRaginPagan is deaf, dumb and blind to facts of its creation and to be thankful to its Creator. The most despicable Human is the one who denies their Creator. Perhaps TheRagingPagan thinks ‘it is a creation of magic’. Lets leave TheRaginPagan to witness the truth just before it breathes its last breadth.

  122. Hunters are hunting and fools are counting. Why not count the peaceful statements to the one who created the Universe.

  123. @Hussain
    Well there is absolutely no reason to be insolent and disrespectful. If you have some claims, evidence or arguments to make, please be my guest but what you mentioned just above was nothing but gibberish.

    I mean no disrespect but at least I know for a fact that till my last breadth, I am living a life with my mind intact and thinking on my feet rather than believing in stories that I find ridiculous and outlandish. Calling someone a liar, dumb, blind, deaf or despicable only shows what morals you pick up by following a religion and I am sorry but I only see emotional babbling and nothing else.

  124. Claims, evidence or arguments have no value to a product of human magic. Now, what it feels to be disrespectful and to write utter gibberish. A taste of ones own medicine. Enjoy the perception of life until it lasts.

  125. So be ‘it’ – No disrespect intended. It’s directed at ‘IT’ – Read ‘it’ – Peace

  126. The first paragraph of this article makes me laugh with tears of sadness and irony. It states the attack in Woolich was “religiously motivated” when all evidence clearly goes against this claim.
    As Mehdi argues that the Woolich murderer when interviewed doesn’t (mis) quote the Qura’exclusively as his motivate “in our lands women have to see the same” hmmmmmmm i wonder wich “lands” he’s talking about hmmmmmmm? Iraq, afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen et al. He goes on to say “remove your goverments, they don’t really care about you”. He states his motive to kill as” theONLY REASON we killed this man today because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers” so i can see how the oppostion must have seen this to mean i did this because of Islam, 72 virgins and I am a scolar of Islam therefore know what the Qura’n wants me to do. If the proposed motion wasn’t soooo sad it would be laughable. Open up hearts and minds to the truth of the history of Islam and close your eye and ears to the mass medi spittin it’s Islamophobia.

  127. @ Saeef khan
    As long as you continue to believe there is nothing wrong with your religion and that those who espouse Islam and do things of which you disapprove are not “real” Muslims you are part of the problem not the solution.
    Get real. Why do you think that almost every Muslim majority country is dysfunctional compared to the average Western style democracy?
    You should be able to see that it’s not the fault of outsiders of evil intent but a cultural failure to create a harmonious society. As religion plays a big part in setting cultural mores you should be able to draw the obvious conclusions,
    Your claim that the small numbers involved in actual terrorist acts demonstrates that they are not real Muslims is logically false and is a variation on the ad populum fallacy.
    You cannot even fall back on this false argument when one considers the endemic levels of corruption present across the Ummah.

  128. @Nadiraah – Woolwich murder was motivated by Islam.
    Beside quoting the Quran, the murderer said as you say ”the ONLY REASON we killed this man today because MUSLIMS are dying daily by British soldiers”. If someone (including yourself) sees terrorists and fighters for a medieval oppressive totalitarian system, primarily as MUSLIMS, then it makes our problem fairly clear. You don’t consider them Taliban (or terrorists) but simply MUSLIMS. If this is not a religious motivation, what is.
    Subsequently, the very manner in which the murder was committed,
    originates from Islam. No other political or religious group in the
    world butchers unarmed “enemies” in the streets.

  129. @Nadiraah – Now please You “open up your heart and mind to the truth of the history of Islam”, and explain how Islam was spread, from Medina to Mecca, Arabian peninsula, Mesopotamia, Sassanid empire, Indian subcontinent, Egypt, North Africa, Balkans and Spain, in self-defense?

    The proposed motion was far from “laughable”. It was based on facts about Islam. If you disagree, give your argument not labels.
    People here have presented and documented a lot of evidences against Islam, but for common sense it is even unnecessary. To understand the nature of Islam, one should just observe actual examples in Islamic world today.

  130. @Hussain Fahmy – Challenge accepted.
    Please start enumerating the peaceful statements of “the one who
    created the Universe”.
    But before that, i’d highly appreciate for you to give your comment to the Prophet’s “marriage” to Safiyah bint Huyayy. It’s an exemplary event, that succinctly depicts the Prophet, and the ideology he established.

  131. Ha. People convert to religions all the time. Just because people convert to islam doesn’t mean that it’s peaceful. Stop using flawed logic.

  132. The vote which was carried is in stark contrast to a debate on the same theme by the Intelligence Squared Debates in America that the minds of the Oxford University community has lost their moral compass.

  133. its good to see we live in peace less then hate and biz to everone based on what few do found everywhere. muslims and non

  134. In March 2012 the number of people from different religious in prison for terrorism were:

    Anglican 1, Roman Catholic 2, Buddhist 1, no religion 3, other religious groups (except Muslim) 1, and Muslim 87. Yes eighty seven.

    Well that proves Islam is a religion of peace doesn’t it? At least according to dick-head PC logic, that’s what it proves.

    The above figures come from a government publication:
    “Operation of police powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and subsequent legislation: Arrests, outcomes and stops and searches.” Table 1.18, p.40.

  135. While you guys are all quibbling over polygamy in terms “Women need to be cared for and there are too many women (or oppositely not enough men for all the women) I don’t really care how you look at. It is the same glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full. Unfortunately the real deal is very opposite of what you state. I’m thinking that perhaps in your vast efforts to not allow any changes to the Quran, you may have missed the fact that men actually outnumber the women in Saudi Arabia. In fact the number of men is 15,196,132 the number of women is 12,251,954. If every single man marries exactly 1 woman each. There are 2,944,178 men without wives! So if a Muslim brother marries more than one woman in Saudi Arabia, he is in fact robbing his brother of a possible wife and dooming him to a life of loneliness! In fact seeing how the numbers ACTUALLY are would make one thing that polygamy in the opposite direction is appropriate. Meaning that 1 woman could have 2 husbands for at least a small sector of the population. And think of it…there is no better way to ensure that a woman would be cared for and protected! Indeed she will have 2 men with incomes, two men for protection and if the men work opposite shifts there is always the other husband to bring the woman to do the weekly food shopping or whatever she may need to do in public.
    If you go to: http://www.geohive.com/earth/pop_gender.aspx
    The numbers shown are for every nation and are from 2010 only 3 years ago!
    I think in a country where women really don’t go out into public frequently a lot is being assumed by the Muslims here and the Muslim religious leaders, who perhaps are guessing as to the numbers? WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION? Or is it simply convenient to keep telling the lie so that you can have your own harem? Are you religious leaders basing this on perhaps centuries old information? What is the excuse this time! Because frankly the western world has to keep standing on their heads finding more outrageous excuses all the time for your behaviors that only your culture seems to find acceptable. There are in fact not 4 women to every man. There is more like 1 woman to every man with only a small surplus of men having to be in a marriage with another man and woman.
    That’s a truly repugnant idea though isn’t it? A man meeting his friends for an afternoon cup of tea and to sit with a hookah and relax for a bit and talking about his home life in terms of his husband and his wife.
    Think about that really let it sink into your bones. There are many women both Muslim and not who do not want to share their husband with other wives! THEY ALSO FIND IT REPUGNANT!
    AND WORSE YET, IT IS BASED ON A COMPLETE LIE!!!!!

  136. @Michele Elise – I’ve always wondered how many Muslims really believe what they say defending Islam, and how many of them purposely present disinformation. I think the number of the latter is far from insignificant. Sometimes claimes are so incredible, while facts are so easily verifiable, that it really seems like an unconditional apology of ISLAM. If those people are willing to disregard facts, logic, and ethics, just to defend and promote an ideology, it’s a pretty disturbing phenomenon.
    Take for example this “discussion” – http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100921230434AAU7mOI (“Why in arab countries female ratio is high than men?”). Here all Muslims reached ‘consensus’ on the men to women ratio. The claim was it’s even 6:1 !! Then you can read the most fantastic explanations of the (already established) “fact”, and finally the conclusion – ‘Now we know why man can marry up to 4 wives.’
    However, all they need to do is to search “men to women ratio” in google.
    So the question is, are they sincere? I don’t have an answer.

  137. Majority of them are indeed not violent, but violence i.e. terrorism is not the biggest problem with the ideology. Terrorism has 0 capabilities of jeopardizing our civilization. The real issue is an obvious political advance of Islam. In this sense, Muslims (common, non-violent) present a kind of a conductive medium for the Sharia, as an ultimate goal. Terrorism is actually an obstacle for even faster acceptance of Sharia as a legitimate part of our social systems. Taking into account demographic tendencies too, our future is fairly predictable.

  138. in reply to muslims being terrorist therefore they are imprisoned then GANDI was imprisoned for being a peaceful guy.

  139. @raginpagan
    If islam was/is such non-peaceful religion then why is it the 2nd fastest growing religion in the galaxy and according to many others islam is the fastest growing religion.

  140. @anonymous

    Because people are violent, and numbers given include children born. A religion growing or spreading does not automatically mean that it’s the most amazing and peaceful thing ever – and honestly I haven’t seen that astounding of a growth at all. The fact that you say “2nd fastest growing in the galaxy” is just proof to me that you’re stroking yourself. How can you speak for all the galaxy?

    During the Middle Ages christianity was fast growing as well; would you say that was peaceful? Because history would mock you ruthlessly, as would everyone else.

  141. @Anonymous – I’m not able to understand this most common ‘argument’ for Islam being a peacefull religion.
    I wouldn’t know about the galaxy, but the fastest growing ideology in the world was german nazism. From a group of beer-house guests in Munich 1920, in just two decades it grew up to a national ideology. The outcome we all know.

    As to Gandhi’s imprisonment, are you suggesting that 87 convicted islamic terrorists in the UK are actually Gandhi-like activists? Are you consequently suggesting that those individuals have been convicted just for being Muslims? I think this logic shows the scales of our problem.

  142. I am always baffled by the use of arguments. I unfortunately havent seen the whole debate yet, but judging from the article – The main argument from supporters of the motion is interpretation and use of -don’t have word for it- when Assan; He asked the audience if they really believe that 1.6 billion people are all “followers, promoters and believers in a religion of violence”. Where using sense of the wholeness to hide the tiny percentage was misleading and deceptive. After all if only a tiny percentage of believers actually participated in violence, the damages done by the demonstrations back 2005/2006 because of caricature should be little or insignificant, however reality was otherwise. As well as the reaction to caricatures should have been different if Islam is a religion of peace by majority; unless this was the justice they sought; death of the drawers. Then I dare say that Islam by modern standards is not peaceful as it is practised.

  143. From today’s paper: Peshawar church blasts kills 78
    68 Killed in Kenya mall attack (by al Shabab’s militants)
    All in the name of a peaceful faith!

  144. Islam (if it ever was just a religion?) has morphed into a political movement using religious tenants to spread its tenacles. As an example it grows by proposing that those who try to leave should be killed and those who attempt to ‘convert’ a muslim should also be killed. Non-muslims are labelled ‘Kuffers’ a derogotory dehumanising term. Communism nor faschism, as bad as they were , never went that far – even Hitler did not kill people who did not support national socialism. It is time that Islam is proscribed political movement in the west – if we value our society’s values.

  145. 1. Today: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2430179/MANZOOR-MOGHAL-Veils-segregated-schools-risk-sowing-seeds-Islamic-terror-Britain.html

    2. Yesterday: Allegedly, the turban “represents liberty, equality and fraternity”! http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/09/23/French-Sikhs-want-turbans-allowed-in-schools/UPI-99581379966741/

    3. Short video clip, “Child Indoctrination”, 7m 28s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwmg5S_UziI

    All in the context of Michael Gove’s obsession with pushing sectarian schools: totally in conflict with any notion of community cohesion and integration. As Prof. Ted Cantle has been reporting since the 2001 race riots. (Remember those?)

  146. The Arabic term kuffer means ‘one who covers the truth’ You fit the term perfectly. Capital punishment applies for those who pledge allegiance to other faith during a battle – Traitor.

    False propaganda actually helps Islamic way of life as the intelligent people tend to research rather than believe rubbish.

  147. This vote is a joke,look at World news any day and see Muslims killing each other…Muslims killing christians….Muslims raping women..abusing children etc…The people who voted must be totally brain dead or biased….

  148. Only the Brain Dead will point accusations in one direction. In a short span of 1400 years the Muslims have grown to become the second largest community in the world.

    The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense. (The Noble Quran 2:171)

  149. Just because we point blame and accusations at you in this topic doesn’t mean blame and accusations aren’t pointed elsewhere. So hold off on the brain dead comments there, hussain. And numbers mean nothing. A large group of fools is still a group of fools.

  150. Killing is Evil – O mankind! Lo! We have created you from male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware. (The Noble Quran 49:13)

  151. Noble words! But do our actions – from Bali to Bombay to Nairobi to Madrid to Lockerbie to London and New York (to mention a few) – match?

  152. Our actions are rewarded by our intentions. Accountability is a certainty. What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

    If We had caused this Quran to descend upon a mountain, thou (O Muhammed) verily hadst seen it humbled, rent asunder by the fear of Allah. Such similitudes coin We for mankind that haply they may reflect. (The Noble Quran 59:21)

  153. One is free to form ones own opinion based on ones perception.

    The blind man is not equal with the seer; (The Noble Quran 35:19) Nor is darkness (tantamount to) light; (The Noble Quran 35:20) Nor is the shadow equal with the sun’s full heat; (The Noble Quran 35:21) Nor are the living equal with the dead. Lo! Allah maketh whom He will to hear. Thou canst not reach those who are in the graves. (The Noble Quran 35:22) Thou art but a warner. (The Noble Quran 35:23)

  154. Then the words in your book, no matter how pretty or peaceful, mean nothing. So long as the people of your religion persist in being violent (not to mention the contradiction of peaceful notions by the doctrines of your hell,) your religion is not one of peace.

  155. An open mind leads to an open heart.

    This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (The Noble Quran 2:2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (The Noble Quran 2:3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammed) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (The Noble Quran 2:4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (The Noble Quran 2:5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (The Noble Quran 2:6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (The Noble Quran 2:7)

  156. Yet more prettied words that mean next to nothing. Actions are the key, hussain, not flowery words. The words in your book have done little to make peaceful your religion, and they’ve had long enough to try.

  157. The message of Islam is perfect, however people are not. Statistics prove that Islam has grown in a short span of time. The value of Islam can be experienced by only those who follow it. My life is rich and peaceful. The proof is in the pudding.

    To be honest, I would completely understand why someone might think Islam was an unattractive choice. When Islam is mentioned in the popular distorted media, it is often mentioned alongside horrible stories and without much of an explanation from a Muslim perspective. On top of that, there are some Muslims out there who are doing terrible things that are either twisted interpretations or cultural practises and have nothing to do with the religion of Islam, in fact they are things that Islam is against.

    But wouldn’t you agree that to judge a religion merely by looking at the actions of some of the people who claim to follow it is not really fair? I mean, surely to get a true understanding of Islam, we have got to look at what its teachings are, what the Noble Quran says about it; not just at the behaviour of some people who call themselves Muslims. And to get an unbiased understanding, we have got to approach the topic with an open mind not allowing the things we have read in the papers or seen on TV to colour our view.

  158. Religions are only useful and perfect to those that believe in them. When will you abrahamics learn that there is no one singular answer to spirituality? Therein lies all of your problems; you’re competing at religions rather than living them. You think it’s a numbers game, something to be won. There is no right or wrong for matter of the spirit.

  159. Agreed ‘Belief’ and ‘Practice’ is a key factor. Practising Muslims do not compete rather they model the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) The numbers game is a product of rational thinking and the ultimate winner is the one who finds happiness in this life and the next.

  160. Then there are few “practicing muslims” in the world. Your numbers should reflect different, if that is the case, and you should boast on them far less than you do.

  161. There is only a few who do not practice Islam as it was prescribed. They are visible in appearance, behaviour and they are accountable to their actions.

    Lo! those who read the Scripture of Allah, and establish worship, and spend of that which We have bestowed on them secretly and openly, they look forward to imperishable gain, (The Noble Quran 35:29) That He will pay them their wages and increase them of His grace. Lo! He is Forgiving, Responsive. (The Noble Quran 35:30)

  162. A few? If it is as you’ve said, then most – if not all – of the Middle East are not true muslims. Then you’ve the fools (much like you,) who boast on your religion’s truth rather than just keeping it to yourself. Is that emulating your prophet-god, or was he as boastful and proud as well?

  163. Only the Creator has access to the knowledge of who is a Muslim (One who submits to the will of Allah) and who is not. The final Judge. Fools display their foolishness by accusing others, while the intelligent observes the foolish with patience.

    Each and every human being submits to someone or something. Sometimes it’s subconscious. We are so used to conforming to subtle external expectations that we don’t even realise we are conforming. We submit to peer pressure – pressure from our friends or from the media. We submit to societal pressures or to the fashion or music industries or to our desires that feeling of ‘I want this’ and ‘I want that’. It’s easy for a human being to allow their desires to lead them in life and it inevitably leads to destruction or a lack of fulfilment. What Islam did for us was to give us a chance to break away from those pressures. I realised that my Creator is the one I must submit to because He knows what is good for me and what is bad for me because He created me! Before that I had many masters, trying to control me, affecting my behaviour; sometimes really subtly. By submitting to God I became free. And I strive to continue to submit to him, it is an ongoing journey but now I have a clear roadmap to follow.

    Allah tells us in the Noble Quran, that we have to submit, to surrender to the will of God, the one who created all of us men and women and who knows us best. That is the only way we will attain peace.

    The passages are to prove that there is cure for disbelief. When faith enters the hearts, that’s when lives change.

  164. “Allah tells us in the Noble Quran, that we have to …. The passages are to prove that …” therein lies the crux of the problem. Muslims believe that the Quran is ‘proof’ and is the word of god. Like wise other religions also have their books of ‘proof’. Tradition has further complicated this body of ‘proof’ so that Sunni’s become intolerant of Shiites and visa versa with further sub-sects also having their beliefs and intolerances. The result of this intolerance is that each sect is prepared to kill the other indiscriminately (market place bombs,funerals, Iran/Iraq war etc) . At the moment the only place where muslims can live without fear is in Christian countries .. but unfortunately this is slowly changing as muslims come to live in the west , bringing their violence and intolerance with them.

  165. Hussain writes ” Capital punishment applies for those who pledge allegiance to other faith during a battle – Traitor. ” Would this then be justification for killing everyone in your religious wars (Iran/Iraq). Methinks that many muslims see the whole world as their battlefield with the goal that Sharia law reign over everyone .. so killing anyone anywhere can be justified

  166. @Hussain Fahmy – September 26th, 2013 – “We can all do well; if we can learn to respect each others faith and space.”

    I’m afraid respect has to be earned. The most you should expect is polite consideration.

  167. @Hussain Fahmy – “The message of Islam is perfect”
    When you think you have the answer then you should know you have gone seriously astray. The human condition is so complex, involving as it does billions of years of evolution, that any philosophy, religious or not, might as well have been scribbled on the back of a fag packet for all the chance it stands of offering a comprehensive guide to life.

  168. Typical of Muslim Mehdi Hasan to use the race card to implicitly threaten Anne-Marie Waters that her future as a Labour Party candidate might now be in jeopardy. It is how the left have shut down all questioning of their open door policy and appeasement to Islam.

  169. Are we gaining anything from this prolonged ‘dialogue of the deaf’? The true believer’s faith is unshakeable. Look up Aurther Koestler on the true believer. Accept defeat!

  170. islam is not a joke that any one say anything about it and we listen if we muslim say
    anything about any other religion you all say islam is bad because he say about our religion
    if you say about islam than it is you right good joke

  171. A special type of bud grafting, is taking place in Muslim society, specially by those who usually call us ” terrorists ” . Who is Osama bin laden and what is Al Qaeda?, these are American creations a few years back, at that time they were in need of them to be used against Russia, but when they turned against their own creator they were called Jihadi terrorists. When America says Jihadi terrorists, it must be taken as a joke or a point to laugh, rather than be taken as serious…..ha ha ha

  172. Archaic logic is great, the problem is that the Koran or Bible or whatever has the ability to justify and promote killing. This is blatantly immoral. How about you take the Koran and cut out all the passages that is not the contemporary moral zeitgeist of your followers, and call it “Book that Teaches Morality”.

  173. I’ts kind of interesting that most if not all of terror attacks today have have some kind of connection to islam.I’m sorry but no other religion promises paradise to those who blow themselves up killing innocent people in the name of jihad(holy war). So unless killing women and children is a joke to you than maybe this is something to consider.

  174. @Avi, very ignorant statement on your behalf. 1) Jihad does not mean holy war. 2) Nowhere in the Qur’an is it mentioned that if you blow yourself up you’ll go to paradise; a) bombs did not exist at the time and b) God condemns the killing of innocents, according to Islam, even in times of war, the rules are just. 3) In response to : ” I’ts kind of interesting that most if not all of terror attacks today have have some kind of connection to islam” (Swift).It is also kind of interesting that most foreign military action is concentrated in the Middle-East. The prominent religion in the Middle-East, as you might be aware of, is Islam. Therefore, if you take these two facts into consideration, you might conclude that people being oppressed in their own country often feel the need to retaliate. Thus, whether one agrees with the logic of Al Qaeda or not, whether one is Muslim, Christian or Buddhist; if it is the only resource made available for them to avenge their innocent loved ones (that might’ve been killed by some wrong-doers pertaining to the military of the country stationed there such as the U.S. Kill Team); it is only natural for some to undertake that path. Also, one has to keep in mind that any principles may be perfect but their adherents might not. For example, if a high school graduate commits a rape or murder would you blame the school system for indoctrinating him with his aggressive behavior or would you blame the person’s own beliefs? Islam is a religion of peace, one must not be making the wrong links, read the Qur’an and do your research; you would find that your arguments are preposterous. One must think before forming an opinion, especially one so offensive to a massive group of human beings.

  175. Well, I agree with your first point but regarding your second point I tend to have a slightly different opinion. Quran, on several occasions call Muslims to go on a war with nonbelievers for the establishment of an Islamic rule. (Some References: Quran (2:191-193) Quran (2:244) Quran (2:216) Quran (3:56) Quran (3:151)). We could see similar issues in the Old Testament but the main difference is that the verses of violence in Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as pertinent or idiosyncratic as other versus.

    Please do not get me wrong, Islam on many occasions also sends a message of peace and harmony but it is also a fact that it also states otherwise and I do find it very confusing to read contradictory statements within a book. I understand that most of the times these violent versus could only be circumstantial and relate to a very specific situation but then whatever the context is; this slogan of being a peaceful religion should actually not be promoted. I would definitely not blame a school if a student commits a crime but I would definitely like to see if there is anything I could improve in the school system to prevent such issues in future and the unfortunate issue with a fixed creed is that it is considered to be eternal truth and cannot be fixed.

  176. the entire debate took place straight after the beheading of Lee Rigby, which show how great cowards students at Oxford Union are. One has to betray own senses to claim that Islam is a religion of peace, especially in contemporary times, when terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are occurring on daily basis.

  177. This was great debate. Truth always wins so it did. suppression of muslim community from everywhere could only be plan without any reality. It is also true that if you put tiny bad spot on very clean piece of cloth then you will start defining whole cloth is uncleaned. I believe that there was no space of argument after Mehdi Hassan question from that audience that if you think that Islam is not religion of peace and every terrorist act is happening because of Islam then why all Muslims aren’t doing that why only little minority is taken as representative of Islam. why the opposition is not ready to understand that Islam is just being used for these heinous crimes. I believe either they are innocent or they don’t want to understand this fact. .

  178. “It is also true that if you put tiny bad spot on very clean piece of cloth then you will start defining whole cloth is uncleaned.”

    Quite clearly, you are not an artist.

  179. @mc have you all forgotten the 1 million people that died in Iraq and Afghanistan, of which approximately 100 000 were children as a result of Western invasion in the Middle East? And you ask is Islam a religion of piece? Ignorant idiots, most of you haven’t even picked up the Qur’an to actually read for yourselves what it says yet you want to tell us Muslims what the Qur’an actually says? A lot of you just reinforce what stupid journos write. Jihad doesn’t mean holy war, it means to strive in the cause of god, to struggle. Let us not forget the Palestine Israel conflict, where the US funds Israel $3-6 billion per year to destroy homes and Palestine’s water systems! On the topic of peace, isn’t it the US and Israel who have nuclear weapons and tell other countries they cannot, furthermore Israel being the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons.

  180. If Islam is a religion of Peace, then it would not make its follower do ANY ANY terrorism acts. The fact that there is Al Qaeda, Wahabi sect who believe that moslems, the believer of Islam do terrorist acts, and influence other people to commit terrorist act is the proof that Islam does not 100% a religion of Peace.
    If Islam is a religion of Peace, moslem terrorist would not believe they will go heaven after committing act of terrorism or pray before doing the act.

  181. you have not heard the debate completely, Answers of all of your questions are there but if you are really looking for it. It was great argument that how many “muslim” terrorist are there in the world and how many muslims are there who doesn’t do it. If Islam’s teachings are so then why 99% muslims are not involved in these kinds of activities. But this is problem with opposition of Islam that they see what they want to see. But truth is truth.

  182. Raf have you forgotten that 400.000 people died under Talibans before Western invasion? Have you forgotten that 1.300.000 died in Iraq and Iran before Western invasion? Have you forgotten that 2.000.000 people died in Sudan before any Western intervention in this country? Have you forgotten thousands of people murdered and oppressed all across the ISlamic world ?

  183. Moreover raf, the 1 million is myth. the number of deaths in iraq is about 170.000 (www.iraqibodycount.com) and most of them died not because of the WEst but because of the holy warriors.

  184. @avi Islam doesn’t at any occassion promote the idea to win paradise by blowing people up! Before critisizing,atleast bother to have a little information on the topic that you are actually criticizing! Islam is purely a supporter of peace and justice and teaches its followers to maintain peace no matter what…and for your kind info,we are the ones being blown up by you people in iran,iraq,pakistan and countless other muslim countries.At the present moment 1.6 billion muslims exist in the world thus Islam being the second largest religion and such a great majority can’t be a follower of voilence! Open up your eyes before concluding! And bother to search for the atrocities on muslims in Iraq and the drones in pakistan….several million muslims are killed every year which clearly proves we are the ones being killed by others and certainly not the ones killing others. Kindly open your eyes to reality.

  185. The Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Bahais. Conficianists, Taoists, Jews, Sikhs, Atheists, Communists) and other Infidels (terms used to non-believers of Islam) have in years past
    emigrated to the western countries. They have contributed in their own way to their adopted
    country without fanfare in very many ways. They have intergreted into western society well.
    They have made few if little demands of their host country. They live PEACEFULLY and draw little attention to themselves. They are PROUD to call themselves…Americans, British,
    Germans., French. Dutch etc They have NEVER trumpeted that they are US, British German, Dutch ( etc ) Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists (and so on).
    In comparison, it’s the Muslims (and I am NOT saying ALL Muslims) who draw attention to
    themselves if not their faith by making all sorts of demands on the societies they live in.
    One glaring example “We want our own pools. Our own schools. Our own this that and the other” None of the other faiths make such demands. If they wish their own facilities, well,
    they gat their act together….purchase land and build their own facilities without ALL of society and their local rate payers having to stomach out the money.
    Another very glaring point…In the main western countries where they have emigrated to. in the Phillipines, Sri Lanka,. India, Burma, Thailand…..it’s the Moslems who seem to draw
    attention to Islam in unspeakable ways. Again, I’m NOT saying ALL Moslems….so get that clear in your mind. You just don’t hear the adherents of other faiths loudly proclaiming
    their faith or their presence. As many Australians and others have said. Australia is a Free country. A country built on freedom of speech and living. If you choose to live in that place, you abide by their rules. If not you, whever you are, are FREE to leave. No
    is preventing you exercising your FREE choice to depart. Remember for Allah’s sake that
    you left your home country for a reason and we won’t go into that. So if you think you made a terrible mistake, don’t perpetuate your error any longer than you have to. Your adopted country might be glad to repatriate you (and you family) home …FIRST CLASS.
    I have a plaque on my front door which reads “Everyone brings us Happiness
    Some when they arrive and others when they go”
    So there you are …child of Allah. Child of God. Confucius said (among other analects) DO NOT DO UNTO OTHERS WHAT
    YOU WOULD NOT LIKE DONE UNTO YOU. The best way of Broadcasting
    your Faith and attracting others to it is living it,,,,,,NOT forcing your ungodly beliefs
    on others. Finally leave Allah / God to deal with those who disbelieve in him or
    blaspheme him. If he is that mighty and great. he can mete out the appropriate
    punishments or rewards himself. He does not need stupid Unworthy and sinful people to
    to do it for him and let’s NOT pretend for a single moment that he has given us permission to commit murder on out fellow human beings
    Pax Vobiscum.

  186. @Allen Goh Careful. What you’re describing there sounds oddly like the awkward period of assimilation* Australia went through a while back before it decided multiculturalism was probably a good way to go. You’re also not only attacking Muslims’ right to identity and free expression, but throwing in any people of a non-Western background. We don’t do that in Australia.
    (As you said, it’s a free country.)
    *Cultural assimilation: Being made to abandon the expression and practice of your personal culture, and take up the culture of the majority instead, to be accepted. It was messed up. But hey, we grew out of it, right?

  187. The recent beheadings have provided a convincing answer. If for no other reason than respect for those who have lost their lives, should we not discontinue this interminable debate?

  188. A few days ago, we had a school trip to visit various religious places including the Islamic centre in which we were able to discuss issues of current world news related to Islam with one of the Muslims. He made it clear that the whole central theme of the Qur’an promotes peace. The Qur’an is the longest untouched book in terms of its many translations; not one singe word or phrase has been changed. The problem is, people of the “Western world” including the UK misinterpret the texts of the Qur’an; they twist the thoughts of these to create a backdrop into labeling the Islamic religion and the people who belong to this religion as “terrorists.” Perhaps even more so, is the fact that the majority of non-Muslims have not even picked up to read the entire Qur’an for themselves, so how are they able to make a judgment for these people? Furthermore, we discussed about how the role of media plays a significant part in being able to morph, change things into any way they feel like, with a very strong influences on the people who watch it. I feel like the events of the Jews being prosecuted and used as scapegoats in Germany during World War 2 are being recreated again.

    It is true that these terrorist attacks are occurring, but one should never condemn everyone under the religion of Islam as terrorists. Why is it that when a Christian terrorist kills people, it never gets to the news? Why is it that all Muslims are the only ones to blame? It is fair to say that those certain individuals who are terrorists should be blamed for, but it is not right to categorize these small individuals in a much larger category.

    I am currently studying “The Reluctant Fundamentalist” by Mohsin Hamid for English Literature. After the 9/11 attacks, America judges all the Muslims as if they are terrorists. Having a beard is even socially unacceptable in Western society; it makes these men vulnerable and viewed as sly and untrustworthy. Not only that, but when it comes to airports, they face huge discrimination, violating the equal human rights. The quote “don’t judge a book by its cover” truly applies to this context. How can the world judge the Islamic religion as a terrorist organisation when we are only judging small and certain individuals out of billions of Muslims and label them as that?

  189. You are free to believe what you were told on a school trip – especially since. It suits you argument.
    But here is what the Ayatollah Khomeini – whose knowledge of the Quran would be difficult to dispute – had to say: “Those who follow the rules of the Koran are aware that we have to obey the laws of qissas (retribution) and that we have to kill… War is a blessing for the world and for every nation. It is Allah himself who commands men to wage war and kill.” How many more beheadings – and live burnings – by the Islamic State do we need before we start entertaining some doubts?Have a heart …

  190. @virnarainVir Narain “by the ISLAMIC STATE”, please stop categorising every muslim into this. Watch this video if you haven’t already https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw These cnn reporters ask the same old questions every time, “what followed wasn’t the intelligent conversation it should have been, but rather a stale regurgitation of the same silly loaded questions hosts have been asking for more than a decade” stop generalising Islam “”you’re talking about a religion about 1.5 billion people and certainly it becomes easy to just simply paint them all with a single brush”, have some perspective…

  191. @virnarainVir Narain Also, have you had the incentive to read the Qur’an page by page yourself instead of just being mindlessly convinced by what one man has said about it? Perhaps then you can truly make a judgement of your own on what the muslims “obey” before the words of the Qur’an. Did Ayatollah Kohmeini quote from the very words of the Qur’an itself.

  192. “It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.” Karen Armstrong, Time magazine

  193. Gods I’m getting so tired of seeing e-mails crop up from this stupid shit. Who cares what a bunch of apologetic douches in Oxford think? There’s no such thing as a peaceful religion, period.

  194. The White House is wrong! Islam is not a religion of peace. It will go to war and massacre it’s people (and others) in the name of religion (G-d). That doesn’t make them religious, it just means that they are a crazy terrorist. They are using their religion as an excuse to kill and also to occupy (just like the time of the crusaders). How can they be religious when they broke all of G-d’s 10 commandments (which by-the-way – Jews ,Christian and Muslim belief in). The Islamic faith broke all of the commandments from; not to use the name of G-d in vain, to not to kill and to not to covet your neighbors’ house, wife, and anything else that belongs to him. I’m not trying to go religious on you – but my point is their should be no mistake between people who observe the laws to those who believe you have to kill for it. Their is a difference between a religious person and a terrorists. Islam is not religious they are terror – a real nightmare. Islam wants to take control – occupy and wants to blame Israel for it’s problems.

  195. you think i should be more moderate; o.k.
    today in the news (4.12.2015) it was written in the press that ‘Islamic group released footage showing jihadists demolishing the ancient Assyrian city of Nimrud……latest attempt to wipe out Islamic history’. History never seems to change nor do the tactics of the Islamic Nation. For example, the Dome of the Rock – (according to Wikipedia) is situated in the center of the Temple Mount, the site where it is believed that the first and second Temple had stood. To set things clear the Dome is built in the center of Temple Mount where the first and second Temple stood. It’s not belief, it’s an historical fact.. Today – I’ve heard arabs say the darnedest thing about the Dome 1) that the Jewish agreed to the building of the Dome on the Mount and 2) It was built in time of peace. Neither reason are true – but that’s what they want people to believe. The temples was captured and destroyed just like the incident that happened this week in Nimrud. And in both incident the arabs entered the city to control, to conquer and to massacre – claiming it in the name of G-d and to wipe out history. There tactics haven’t changed from them to now! Has I said before their is nothing peaceful about the Islamic people that they believe that they can destroy cultures or change history – THEY CANNOT!
    They are killers, they are terrorist, and like I said before; their is a difference between a religious observer whom obeys g-d’s law to that who believes they should kill in the name of G-d (there is a difference). There is also a difference between ‘ones freedom fighter to another ones terrorist’. Lets not distort words – The arabs are not freedom fighters and they are not a religion of peace! You are probably mad at me for not saying it’s done by Islamic Fundamentalist and that I keep on referring it to the Islamic Nation but what do you want me to say when 90% of the arab MODERATES who are educated in the free world believe in their cause! To me that’s disgusting, because nobody is asking them to change their way of life and nobody is taking away there freedom of believes so why are they forcing their way of life on us – by their lies.

  196. Are you know Islam ?? if your answer is no , To everybody don’t know Islam Don’t speak more … at first you must read about Islam … i’m a Muslim I know Islam very much & I know that Islam is a religion of peace

  197. Ayatollah Khomeini is replying to Western apologists and Muslim moderates by citing the Koran chapter and verse on the subject of the definition of “jihad,” or holy war:

    Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islam Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world . . . Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this man that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this man sitting back until [non- Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet} urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”
    Clearly, you know the religion better than tha Ayatollah.

  198. I would not claim to be a christian. But I am struck by the account of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery whom some nasty judgemental hypocrits
    wanted to stone to death according to that stone age law. Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. They all left by ones and two,s. I find this account has much to teach whether christian or not.
    I am not a Jew but I recall, Jeremiah the PRophet stating,First circumcise your hearts, not your bodies. I think there is something in that for everyone.
    Perhaps the last I can recall,is Peace! Peace! They cry. But there is no peace.

  199. This shit is still going on? Bloody hell; Oxford is not a social god, and there’s no such thing as a peaceful religion.

  200. Dear me. No.
    These brilliant young minds cannot a be a kind of syncretic God. The appetite for swallowing camels is not associated with any god I can think of. I’d have to reject the idea that the result suggests intellectual dishonesty, since I’m sure that these people could dissect a gnat with precion. I can only think that they have discovered a method of reason and judicious argument which would have been beyond the understanding of their serious forbears.

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